Nice Guys and Jerks
Women - Page 4
I'm a happily married smart woman and I came across your column somewhat randomly, but this issue just struck a chord with me, so I had to respond. I actually do have a good male friend who is always complaining about this issue (he's a "nice guy"), and what I once told him wasn't represented in the responses so far, so here goes:
First of all, I think there's an inherent difference between a jerk and a bad boy. A jerk will actually treat a woman badly on purpose (i.e., belittle her, not call, push her away, alienate her from her friends and family, etc). The sort of women who go for genuine jerks need to have their heads examined. Period. Some kind of pathology is going on there that no guy who isn't a jerk should want to get involved with.
Bad boys, however, are a different story. Being "bad," in the classical sense for a woman, doesn't necessarily mean "bad to her." What do the James Deans and Johnny Depps of the world have in common? Aside from good looks, obviously, it's deep and intense emotion. Sometimes it's brooding, sometimes elation, sometimes anger, and sometimes it's extreme passion for some lucky girl. At least, that's what women who like bad boys are hoping.
Women who repeatedly go for this type of guy seem to be operating on some kind of informal theory, wherein the same intensity that propels the bad boy to throw breakable things in a fit of scary anger will also make him an insanely passionate lover. This doesn't seem to actually work out all that often in real life, but that's the theory anyway. (In reality, bad boys often take you on an emotional roller coaster and then leave you with a lot of broken stuff.)
The thing is, every guy has some kind of intensity going for him, and every guy has the potential to be insanely passionate. The problem with nice guys is that they think they have to hold this back somehow, or they'll risk intimidating a woman, or seeming pushy, or seeming fixated on one thing (sex), etc. But, really, what most basically intelligent women (who aren't pathological) want is a nice guy who CAN be a bad boy, when the occasion calls for it.
So, nice guy, go ahead and get sufficiently pissed at the random other guy who's trying to put the moves on your date (you know it happens). If you go to a sporting event with a woman, go ahead and yell your head off in elation or anger at the teams (you may think you'll look crazy, but if you're a typical reserved nice guy, what's crazy for you will just seem funny and charismatic to her). And definitely, by all means, don't hold back physically when you're getting all the signals that she wants to see the buttoned-up nice guy give way to the insanely passionate lover (and she does, really).
At the very end of Bridget Jones Diary, a great movie for understanding how women think (even though some of us are loathe to admit it), there's an amazing scene where Mark Darcy (the nice guy who finally wins out over the jerk competing for Bridget's heart) spontaneously and passionately kisses Bridget in the middle of the street. She looks up at him in surprise afterward and says, "Mr. Darcy! Nice men don't kiss like that!" And he responds, in a low, throaty voice, "Oh yes they f*cking do." Then he goes in for another kiss, the camera pans out, and women everywhere sigh.
I'd like to respond to the topic, "Nice Guys v. Jerks", and no, I'm not here to sing the praises of the so-called nice guys.
First of all, as any woman will tell you, it really does not matter what a man looks like, or even how much money he makes, or even how "confident" he "appears" to be. A jerk is a guy who knows what he wants and pursues it. This requires confidence, and that is attractive.
It's attractive in the context of being pursued, because it's flattering, and also, because the "jerk" usually is pursing a number of women, it is flattering without those fearful, stalking tendencies of the "nice" (re: desperate) guy. Jerks are attractive because they are not desperate. The least attractive quality any human being can display is desperation. Sure, you can BE desperate -- but never show it!
And sometimes, the attempt to appear all suave and charming and "confident" just comes off as DESPERATE. In order to succeed with women, you truly have to give up any real concern with outcome and learn to actually enjoy the pursuit.
As a woman, I can tell you right now, all the "techniques", secret hand shakes, etc., are not convincing. Be a fun person. Most "nice" guys are grossly self-loathing and resentful, and that is not attractive. Unfortunately there is the Richard the III syndrome, and that is the tendency of ugly people to hate themselves, and others that are more attractive then themselves.
But if you really LOVE attractive women, and you don't resent them, they will like YOU. A jerk is so blithely self absorbed, generally, they are not looking at your faults, your flaws, their own, what's wrong with the world, etc. And that shallowness is attractive, because it's relaxing.
So, be a surfer, and then once things get going, then start diving for pearls. Nice guys are just -- tedious, for the most part. Women want to have a good time, and jerks are fun. It really isn't any more complicated then that.
I am a 25 year old girl. I don't like either The Real Jerks or The Real Nice Guys. There are some reasons though, why a jerk often is more interesting as a boyfriend to a girl than a nice guy though. Basically, it is that the stereotype Jerk knows how to flirt and date, and the Nice Guy does not.
* Jerks treat you like a woman, nice guys approach you as a friend.
~ "Man, I feel like a woman!" Approaching you like a woman, results in seeing him as a man, approaching you as a friend, makes you see him as a friend.
* Jerks approach you and conquer you: they have lots of self confidence.
~ There is nothing more exciting than having a man conquer you. A woman likes to be swept off her feet and have a man take the lead! Self confidence is soooo damn sexy! No woman likes to play a guys momma and take the lead because he is not able to do so.
* Jerks let you put effort in them before they want to be with you.
~ Although a woman does not like to chase a man, she does love to seduce him. When a man wants a girl too much, and does not require putting effort in him first, there is no need to seduce him anymore, and there is no seducing game. Seducing games turn women on.
* You cannot manipulate a Jerk, but you can manipulate a Nice Guy.
Guys which can be manipulated, who let themselves be treated like a dog just to be with you, seem a bit pathetic. A guy that can say no and can walk away is sexy. After all, we women can say no to men too, right? This is not about being nice, but about behaving like a doormat. No girl wants a doormat as a boyfriend.
There also are good things about Nice Guys:
* Nice guys don't cheat and have respect for you.
* Nice guys have a lovable heart and a soul.
~ In a relationship, women do not want to be treated like dirt or have a guy that does not love them back. There is a difference between a man being a man, and a man treating a woman like dirt. These nice guys traits are the ones Jerks are definitely lacking.
Basically, while neither of them is perfect, for most women, a jerk (initially) comes closer to the image of "what women want". They are not perfect, but at least they know how to play the love game and turn women on.
Nice guys present themselves to you either as friends (or in worse cases as doormats), which both lack the "male sex factor", that's why women don't choose them as a boyfriend.
The ideal is of course the "Good Guy" who is a Nice Guy but also has a lot of self confidence and knows how to play the male lead part in the romance game. Good Guys are the ones that are truly sexy, and The Perfect Ideal Guy any woman would like to have.
The moral of the story: If you're a Nice Guy, don't give up on being nice. Learn to play love game though.
As a general rule, all I can say is that nice guys usually don't get first dibs on a lot of girls. But it is usually because of lack of confidence, or not having a busy life or whatever.
This may sound terrible, but I have never met an "unattractive" jerk. Usually the jerks are the hot guys because they know they are good looking and they have their pick of the girls. While that should never be an excuse, unfortunately it's just the real truth. The "average" looking guys are usually a lot nicer because they know they are not as good looking and in turn, have less confidence.
Just keep in mind that looks are NOT everything. For most men, they know right away if they are attracted to a woman, for whatever reason. It is DIFFERENT for women. They may not be attracted when they first see you, but if you have confidence, humor, and a great personality, they can fall in love with you in time, as long as you project what you think you're worth. Women's feelings can change by getting to know you, but that is usually not the case for men. There was a study done on this very topic.
So don't lose hope nice guys � hot jerks are overrated and sometimes not even that great in bed!
I have liked both nice guys and jerks, but the facts are clear -- we want a guy other people like too. It adds interest.
Usually the "nice" guys are ugly or just trying to get laid like everybody else... Just using a different method. The actually hot nice guys who know how to treat girls and who we all want are usually taken. If you want a long-term normal relationship, we will date you if you are nice and we liked you before.
I'm 18 and female. There is absolutely NOTHING that is attractive about a jerk!
I want a NICE GUY. I will admit though, that it takes more than simply being 'nice'. You must be sexually attracted to him or it won't work. I think a lot of women confuse SEX APPEAL with JERK APPEAL.
My advice to nice guys sick of hearing "You're a great friend", is to increase their mystery and explore their sexuality. Being nice and sexy, is a major turn on! So, ditch the jerky attitude and release your (nice) sex appeal. And be confident about it!
Okay... I've noticed a lot of guys say girls go for jerks. But what kind of girls? I see a guy drooling over some super cute girl and she is with (according to him) a jerk. But in all truth, I find guys who call themselves 'nice' to often be very... not nice.
Guys who really care don't seem to consider themselves anything. They are too busy being themselves to care about some worthless vendetta against accused jerks. And yeah, a lot of girls do go for jerks. A lot of guys just want to get laid - apparently on both sides of the nice vs. jerk issue. But if you're trying to get a girl just to sleep with her - no matter what you call yourself or how you THINK you treat her - it's rather jerky.
Maybe, for the self-proclaimed nice guys, and for the real nice guys who can't catch a break - just smile. It's always nice to meet genuinely happy people. If that fails uh.... run! There's always the clergy!
Women are just as likely to be attracted to a nice guy as a jerk, but the jerk is more likely to make a move. Therefore, it appears as if women just want to date jerks. Frankly, most of the women I know only make the first move out of sheer frustration.
If the guy is really nice and waits too long to make a move he becomes a friend and subsequently off-limits. So carpe diem, guys. You can't win if you don't play.